[Podcast] The World Doesn't Come to You

Starting a new endeavor is a challenge. Getting people to care is even harder.

Jon and Nicole explain how they won Shape's first few customers and the difficulties that faced them along the way.

Show Notes

Getting your first customer can be the largest hurdle when starting company. Nicole and Jon know this challenge all too well and cover topics like:

  • How to market a brand new company
  • Making your product 'free'/offering a 'free trial'
  • Overcoming early mistakes
  • Satisfying investors without making fast sales
  • When to publicly announce your product
  • The importance of customer service

The best advice we have is to remember the world doesn't come to you.

You create a great product and anticipate that people will care. It takes much more than waiting around to get your first customer, however. You need to market, sell, promote, and chase after clients if you want to get your business off the ground and on its way.

About the Hosts

Nicole Mears

Nicole is a former PPC analyst, department head, and product manager. She focuses on marketing and customer success.

Jon Davis

Spent years as a PPC consultant and agency analyst before focusing on making software.


Nicole: Hi John. Jon: Hey Nicole, ready. N: Let's do this J: Alright, episode 2. (music) N: Welcome to Shape the Conversation, I'm Nicole. J: I'm John, and we work at Shape.io here in Bend Oregon. If you want to hear a little bit more about us, jump back to the last episode. We gave a little bit more in-depth intro we'll go into a little bit more about us and background on this episode as well. But let's just jump right in. I think Nicole, how does that sound? N: Sounds Great. J: All right. So I think we should start with saying the original idea for this episode was to really hone in on getting your first customers kind of for anything. So I set out to find a few folks from around town here in Bend Oregon that have founded companies and asked them to tell the story of how they got their first customer. First person I contacted was Dana Barbato. She runs a really cool startup that's just down the street called InvestiPro. They make a software platform to help H.R. people conduct workplace investigations. If you know somebody in H.R. definitely send them Dana's way. Dana was recently named Woman Entrepreneur of the Year by Bend City Chamber of Commerce, so I thought she'd be a great person to kind of pick her brain and see how she got her first customer. I really admired Dana. She's got an incredible founding story that includes two years she spent living in a trailer on her son's property so she could save money invest more into her business. So I had Dana come into the Shape studio, sit down, and I asked her tell a story about her first customers and here's how she started it. Dana: So getting your first customer is always an interesting thing you think that once you start off with a product and release it the whole world's going to come to you. But that's obviously not what happens. You know it takes some doing to get out and get the word out and then also to get people I think the big factor here is trust so they need to be able to trust you before they're willing to pay you which makes total sense. The way that I found to go out and do this in the very beginning was to go out and speak to H.R. groups because we have an H.R. product and just let them know how I developed it that I used to be in their shoes that I found this to be a good solution and tested it over the years and decided to replicate it in mass. J: Okay, so I'll cut Dana off there. She goes on to tell a story about after that speaking event she followed up with the prospect and landed her first customer. But for me after hearing those first 15 seconds I thought we might need to change the focus. D: First customer is always an interesting thing you think that once you start off with a product and release it the whole world's going to come to you. But that's obviously not what happens. J: And that's really where I think we're going to hone in on it's that the world doesn't come to you. You know I think that's a really powerful idea. You know we've kind of talked about this as being a time capsule for even our kids this podcast to go back and get some lessons and some kind of small legacy on our belief values and ideas. And I think that be the number one advice I'd give my sons if they're getting into anything is that the world's not going to come to you. You gotta go out there and get it a little bit. N: No it's not. J: And we know that all too well as being marketing people right. I have to imagine you've been on a little bit over a year now at shape we kind of brought you on to pour fuel on the fire of what we're doing and the momentum we had. But it's hard out here in kind of startup land isn't it. N: It's rough especially in SaaS can you do the traditional things you can do mailers. Are people going to come to you towards that way. Nope. Are you going to spend hours upon hours building links trying to get people to find your blogs. Yep. And the thing is it's you can do as much outbound and inbound as you want. It's a struggle it's a struggle to get each and every customer in that door. J: Yeah definitely. And I thought this was a great opportunity for us to really pull back the curtain a little bit on how we handle this problem of the world not coming to us how we've handled it through different stages of the company. We've been around now for in various stages for almost five years. Change the name once back in 2015. But I think really what I've learned through the whole journey is absolutely the world doesn't come to you. You got to find ways to get the word out there like Dana said have people develop trust in you, and I think that's really a key if you think about that that's going to help get your first customers get your first get a project off the ground get anything new that you're starting. People that are looking to that come to me and ask me questions about their new project. I always tell them like where can you create value where value doesn't exist currently. So I don't know how far back to take this Nicole? N: I think we go all the way back J: All the way back? All right. Well for me I was a struggling sales guy back in 2006 right out of college. I had a sales job that I did not like. Man I was not being very successful at and I actually thought maybe there is a lot easier and so making these cold calls if the world could come to me. And that's where I really fell in love with digital marketing and Pay Per Click advertising in particular. And along that same time I was kind of finding tech crunch in some of these places learning a little bit more about SaaS and startups recently at schools. Something I hadn't thought too much about and so I was always kind of a, what I call, a wantapenuer for about four or five years working my day jobs. But listening and reading to stuff at night to kind of help get something off the ground. So those years when we were working together back at previous start up I'd spend some nights and weekends coding a prototype and I always believed, "All right I got this guy. Gotta get this thing code in and finished, that's the really hard part. Once I have a product that works we'll be able to put it out there with a few people and once they tested they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their friends and that's the SaaS Dream right that's the way it always goes in all these podcasts that people talk about." But in reality it's very very different. In reality probably what it looks like is you hacking together some cobbled together MVP that pretty much works and then you're launching it to a market that doesn't know who you are or anything about you. N: Did you ever get any of those initial test runs off the ground. Launch them out into the world. J: Yeah I think you know given a little more context than that. So my day to day job was as a digital marketer. I was running ads across Google, Bing, Facebook for customers and I was always looking for SaaS ideas in my life that I thought can maybe turn into a company and eventually just started turning that focus inward problems that I had myself. Dana talked about that too you know. What made the most sense for her to build was something that she needed. And I think this is a great way to get started. I think it can lead you in some tough situations sometimes if you're not careful because you're a little too locked in your own by your own opinion but at least you have one person that's going to use what you're building, and that's you. And it helps you at least get started and kind of get it off the ground so the first iteration I would say that I actually got in somebody's hands was getting in the hands of other developers who were better than me and could actually bring something to life that other people would use. The very first project that I try to get off the ground something called PPC Headquarters and it was, if you know Base Camp, I pretty much described it to people as a Base Camp for PPCer's. It had different flows and I'm sure you remember seeing some of the very early betas on that one. N: Absolutely, I think we met for a lunch one time when we talked about it for two hours whether or not certain features would be useful. At that time I was managing a PPC team so I was like kind of I think a great feedback session for you to just ask if our team would utilize certain features. J: Definitely. Yeah I left that team back in 2013 with the idea being that hopefully they'd be my first customer. I could sell that to them got developers who are still with us on board today. that's a whole other story about how to build your first product and get it off the ground. But for this one we are going to focus on let's say you do have something and you go to put it out there. Chances are you're gonna be very disappointed by the feedback or reaction that you get if you haven't been cultivating an audience for yourself along the way. So in my case I got PPC Headquarters together, we got enough of a work MVP talk to you, the features that we'd use whatever. Finally was ready went to the team sent it to you and... nobody used it. N: Nope, not one J: Yeah, It just honestly wasn't good enough. That's a tough thing if you're building a lot in isolation and you're not getting things out there in the world. That's the other problem sometimes of building something for yourself is that you wait for something to be perfect, and you wait too long to figure out if maybe some of the big assumptions you have aren't right. So there's a perfect example. So, my best friends were still on that team, they know I left the company to work on this thing that I cared a lot about and I built this thing and I sent it back to them and then they use it a couple of times they find it really buggy and they're too busy they've got to move on. You know what we say all the time is that even free software people aren't just going to use it because it's free. If your software is not providing value it doesn't work they're not even going to give free software the time of day and I made some huge mistakes back then that I could've put myself in a lot better position to have the world come to us. N: Are you willing to share any of those mistakes here. J: Oh yeah, definitely. I tell people all the time. The number one thing I would have done in nights and weekends as opposed to a lot of times like hacking through code and learning how to make it, is I would have been writing. I would have been developing content, I would have been developing an audience I think as digital marketers a lot of times we were at a company that's growing and our department is growing and things are going well we lose a little bit of a focus on your personal branding honestly in a touch. And during those times I hadn't done any writing. I hadn't done anything to build my own Twitter presence out there. I had no name in the marketplace at all that people were going to be interested about when I launched a project. So I think you've got to look hard in the mirror like, today if you were to put a LinkedIn post does anybody look at it like anybody you know if nobody does you go a long way to go before you can actually market a product that you're getting out there. N: Well, yeah. I mean it's great and all if you put a fantastic LinkedIn post up and you're LinkedIn followers are your mom and your co-worker from a restaurant you worked at back in college but they're not the type of people who can actually amplify that, but they're not the people who are going to support you, and who may have connections that are in your industry. J: Yeah, definitely and that's what I found early on. I just hadn't cultivated that audience that could help me expand that message. And when you run in those situations where you're met with things you weren't expecting like I was at that point honestly I thought that we were just going to keep that momentum and move forward. Keep tweaking that and it would be a great product. But what I actually found was that the product wasn't as useful as I thought and we after 30 days from launching the original beta, we had zero active users. And that was a tough realization to come to a few months in. N: So was that the point was it 30 days was it 60 days, when did you decide to pull the plug on that or did you? J: So we were about three months in and Chris, our CTO, came to me and he says, "Time to have tough conversation." He's like, "I see what we're trying to do here, but it doesn't feel like it's really the traction is there." So to his credit, he was a young guy, he had a lot of prospects a lot of other things he could have done instead of just like kicking me to the curb, he said, "Okay what are we going to do? You know, come up with something. Think about what we can do next." And the good thing about actually getting the beta out there was that we had some data. You guys didn't use the product much at all, but there was a few little nuggets in the app that actually were useful. Namely people liked using it for budget tracking and they liked being able to set a budget at that point we had no API connections no detailed syncs with Google Bing or any of these data flows, it was just a page where they could enter a budget, see where the spend was, put it out there, get in front of a client really easily. And so Chris and I really looked at that and we found that maybe there's more here to this budgeting part maybe the next iteration of this product is a budgeting focused product. So we hunkered back down and pretty much for four or five months learned how to work with all the Google APIs, Facebook APIs, started pulling the data rebranded we changed the name for PPC Headquarters to Steady Budget to really hone in on the fact that we're going to be a budgeting tool and through that summer the two developers came can the House every day and we really coded MVP now that actually worked and it delivered a lot of value and it was based on something we saw people actually doing in the first version of the app so we felt we had a lot more confidence about that and we kept working on Steady Budget which was a tool that you let you group all these campaigns really easily into budgets. Now we were automatically tracking these budgets for you. And when that was ready almost a year later from that first attempt we presented to you guys and the team that were still there and this time, took off and I don't know if you remember how different it felt during that stretch but at that time we gave it to one of the people on the team, they spread it to the next person on the team, and now we kind of had something and we were off and running. N: Yeah it was absolutely the case where you know you get one person hooked on the time savings alone. And then as Jon mentioned that person told someone else and it kind of escalated from there. Now we definitely had some hold outs. I don't know why they really loved excel. I think they still do to this day. But you know to the point now where that entire team is utilizing that tool and it's integrated in their processes. So just one quick question for you. So we were your first big customer but who was your first customers where you didn't have those connections and how did you go about getting that customer? J: Good question. So during that time we were in a beta phase up until October 2014 and then we decided to open it up. We had nothing to lose. This was our last shot at it. So we opened it up as a free product just to try to get some traction. So the original plan was try to bootstrap at this point we had almost gone a year and a half with zero sales. So bank accounts for running lower than it had previously been planned at that point. So our strategy was, launch as a free tool, get traction, show we could build something that the market wanted, then over that time I would shift to raise funding through seed funding to hopefully hit by that summer to sustain us and we would use the traction we were getting on the free product as the pitch deck. But we launched as a free product and this time we had 30-35 agencies using the software within a month or two and they were staying and they were continuing to use it and we felt like okay now we're on the path now we're doing it like we've got something people want to use but we are still free product. N: Did you go after those agencies or did they come to you? J: Yeah. So I was working out of the house at that point and pretty much my day to day involved, going on Twitter, finding any digital marketer I could, going on LinkedIn, I would send at least a hundred cold e-mails a day I would ping people on Twitter the most like unintrusive @ mension you could imagine it was like, "Hey, I'm a digital marketer. I'm like kind of making this free tool would you please check it out and like maybe if you do let me know what you think." it's like the softest weakest pitch you could ever imagine. N: You're still hustling though. J: Yeah you're still getting out there and that's the thing like they're not going to come to you. Maybe it's just a cold e-mail or a tweet or whatever but now you're in their notification feed like you're out there and people know that you have a URL you can go to and land and get it. So we're going through this period I'm doing all outbound. We've got barely any inbound going because like I said I hadn't done any writing, no blogging, no inbound stuff nobody's coming to us we're still early we're not ranking for any terms really that are getting any, but we've got this little bit of a free trial crew growing. We've got, like I said 35 companies using it. I'm able to get a little bit more traction in some of the seed funding conversations. And we feel like we're on the trail. So we decide okay, it's time to switch from free to premium. We have 35 companies talking to them and they're all really excited about it. Okay when you go to premium we have verbal commitments from those half of those 35 companies to come on to the premium version which would be huge and the day when we flip the switch and we're no longer offering our free tier, 2 companies signed up for that premium version. And one of them was the team you are on and that one was a German small German company that I had never met that one of their friends on Twitter sent them a link that said hey check this thing out it could help you with budgeting. And he was on the free tier and when we flipped the premium he put down his credit card for his company. N: 2 is Better Than Zero. J: True, two however was not very impressive to the venture capitalists that we were pitching through that time. Most of our venture deals kind of fell through at that point except for one. And we got one yes and in venture that's all that matters and we were able to raise 300 thousand dollars in July of 2015 just even based on those two customers. So sometimes it doesn't take much but investors know how hard it is to bring something into the world that other people are going to use. So even if you only get a customer or two, getting that first credit card really helps you kind of push to that next stage. So now again we felt like all right we're on the path now we've got funding we can hire some more people we can put more energy behind our marketing. We announced the funding we fear it's going to be, you know, people are going to care about it. One day later... Nobody cares. One day later I'm back sending e-mails same as I was before. Same trying to get some blog post off the ground and we've got some more sales support but it's the same again. You know that everything happens so fast that people just don't stick in people's consciousness. I don't know if you find that during this time like there are so many tools out there you're finding so many tools you think if you put a tool out there people are going to come across it. But there are so many software and tools that you're just not even seeing that just don't come across your feed or don't come across your frame of reference N: Or maybe they do but you see it once and then it's out of your mind in less than ten seconds. How are you going to recognize that that product is something that you or your team needs. If all you ever see is that one instance of it then it's gone. J: Yeah and that's really one thing I struggled with early on too was deciding when to pull the trigger on telling the world and trying to have the world come to you and the market come to you. We had a lot of internal discussions like, "Okay well but if we do this big email push and people try it and we don't have future x y z they're going to forget about us forever." and that's probably the case. You know, you've got to just continually balance that with not putting stuff out there and not getting feedback you're going to lose someone the way in which you're going to get great feedback along the way. N: So, I mean, you indicated there was a very slow trickle at first, when or what did you do where you kind of started to see it pick up a little bit more? J: Really we just I think time and energy honestly I make a lot of it. If you look at our Google Analytics from going back from 2013-14 to now it's a pretty steady climb up. You know I think there's no real silver bullets in marketing. There's no, there's a million lead bullets that you're throwing out there like Marc Andreessen says like there's no one thing and I think even today it would have been easier to stand out back than with content marketing in 2013-14 than it is today. Today there's so much content out there that it's even harder to get the world to listen because there's so many people yelling out there into the abyss. Now I think there's more time than ever being spent on devices so there's more opportunity than ever for people to discover you but that's matched with all the noise that's out there. And so as we moved to gaining like Customer 3, 4, 5, 6, they actually, for us, and I think that's a key thing to remember during this discussion is like I'm sure there's startups out there that are a lot easier time. Are probably a better initial coder than me. They're able to be a better marketer than me. There's lots of ways are made it easier. But for us it hasn't really gotten much easier. You know I feel like I work just as hard now to get the word out as I did back then and I actually don't think there's anything other than continuing to put and time and energy into the sales and marketing that will really get you over that next hump. Now what was key for us was the ability to communicate trust to bigger prospects. And Dana talked about that like she got a lot of her first customers an interest because they trusted her. And that is the hardest thing to do some of your early customers and the people that do find to you but even this podcast now is us continue to push the envelope continuing to try to find new ways to get in front of people and continue to push that curve up and to the right because it won't keep going up and to the right if you don't put energy into it I think that's another thing we've seen. Right. Like if we let it lax at all like you can't just not do marketing for two months and have that not affect you. N: Yeah there's a significant drop off right away. Unfortunately. J: Yeah and I think, you know, if we roll some of our internal stats to give you an idea of like where we were at those points. I mean I'm talking we had eight to ten people a day coming to the Web site for a lot of our early periods. A lot of articles you read out there are about optimizing traffic flows and dialing in your funnel or whatever. How do you get 20 people a day to your Web site? You know you've got to go out there and get it and that's what we're talking about is marketing is a lot, it is becoming the differentiator and in today's world technology's becoming a little bit more commoditized everyday and marketing and getting people to hear about you are the new differentiators of this phase. And for us as we move through that stretch going from Customer 3, 4, 5, 6, to 10, 15, 20, and we're seeing our burn rate drop every month we're feeling like we're doing the right things and getting momentum and, "Okay now people are going to start listening to us. Now we've got these customers out there that can be our sales people!" and the interesting thing I think in B2B is sometimes like people don't share as much as they might with B2C like our viral effect is there but I think it's mitigated by sometimes competition. You know if you find some great tool that you think's giving you an advantage over your competition you're not going to be maybe as apt to like tell the world about it. N: See now I disagree slightly there. Because I think the PPC community is really active on sharing things and so what I've actually seen is we've seen a little bit of traction now which is super exciting of people being like recommending our tool. But in that same instance whether it's a Reddit feed or whether it's some slack community like online genius's someone will post something out that's like tell me about what you use to manage budgets or tell me about what you use to do your PPC reporting and in one instance one breath someone's going to recommend you and say check this out. But they're also going to recommend three other tools. J: Great point. N: So it's not necessarily that they're hesitant to throw it out to the PPC community because maybe a competitor isn't necessarily hanging on that group, right? If I'm PPC marketer in-house for a manufacturing company I'm not necessarily going to be super concerned about someone hanging around in that Slack channel who is the next door manufacturing company. So I think they're more apt to recommend tools in that manner. Now would they at a manufacturing conferences sit there with a digital marker that's right across the way from them on the table who's a competitor and recommend the same things? I don't know, maybe not. J: Yeah conferences that's another thing. We sponsored a booth at a major digital marketing conference spent lots and lots of money. And here we are at a booth. We've got our sign up we're saying hey everybody like we're building stuff for you attendees of the conference. You are our people and even sitting right there in the room, people don't even come over and talk to us. Like we found at that conference even at the conference like don't really care about what you're doing. And that's a that's a big thing to remember is that just going out there doing it starting a Web site starting new project whatever it's not enough to get people to care. You're going to have to do so much more. And new founders or people starting ne projects that I talk to. They always talk about how the marketing is what surprised them about how tough it was how like even a great link on a Web site maybe drives 10, 15 visits. I mean we've gotten retweets from people with 30-40,000 followers. People like, "Hey go check out this article it's a great article!" and then we'll go check our stats and we got like eight click throughs. You know so like people just, they're not going to care. You know you really have to go out there talk passionately about what you're doing to try to always be pushing your message out there to the world because if you're not doing that you might have be building great technology but it's not worth anything. That's where we found ourself for a lot of stretches through our history you know like we feel like we've had a really good tech but we haven't been able to get the word out there enough. And through those early stages when we were trying to reach profitability there was a lot of pressure on the sales and marketing team you know it's not an easy spot to be a growing company or anybody trying to create new deals or get new traction. And you've got to persevere and you've got to take nothing for granted you've got any you've got to constantly be building articles and links and ways for people to find you. N: You have to be constantly building new things that are valuable to your customers. It goes back to trust it goes back to creating a product that someone actually wants to use. You know again you get it in their hands. Maybe it's a grind to get it in their hands but once it's in their hands are they actually using it or are they finding value. Or you know is another tool coming up and you know eating your lunch because they've got three more invaluable tools and at the same price. So you know to me again it's as much about marketing as it is about keeping customer service to keeping that customer. J: Yeah definitely customer service. We're talking about it. It's so hard to get people to try your product and initially use it. That's a great point the customer service the way you keep them there. So is customer service is really hard and takes a lot of energy and effort but it's still easier than getting a new person to try your product and get going. N: Absolutely. I kind of I throw it into marketing. I mean granted I do kind of I have customer service under my umbrella so maybe I'm a little skewed but because you still have to give that free trial as much customer service as you give somebody who is actually paying. Because again they're going to be someone who for one may be a paying customer who may recommend you may now etc. etc. Even if they spend their entire history with you as a free trial they may stick with it as a free trial. If you give them an option. J: Yeah definitely a free trial it's a great point. That's another thing we've experimented with a lot to try to make it easier for people to find us discover us. We experimented with a 31 day free trial where you could do anything you wanted in the app. Then we made that a seven day free trial and the tough part with both those that we were still putting pressure on our buyer in those situations we were still saying hey within the seven day window within this 31 day window you've got to make sure that you like the software make sure it does what you need to do. Sell your coworkers on it possibly sell your boss on it and now they're having to go out there and make the world come to them. Like now you burden them with trying to sell it to the rest of their team. And now you put a time window on them to make that even tougher and what we found was that sign ups actually went down when we dropped down to 7 days because people are like "I don't think I can even get that approved in seven days I'm not going to try." And now we've got a, you can completely use the software for one client manage it free with no time restrictions and then be able to prove it for that one client and then roll that into your other ones or go to show your boss instead of making this big pitch, just go show here's the problems I've solved. Here's what I've done. It's so much easier to go show somebody here's what I've done as opposed to here's what I'm going to do and get them to believe. And that's where you know you've got to find ways to make that as easy as possible once you get somebody to your site. These days where we at daily visitors new visitors to shaped you know I think we're in the 40 to 50 unique new visitors a day to the Web site and blog which is 10x where we were three years ago and we really hope that we can 10, 100x that again over the next three years. But it's not going to get any easier. People aren't going to say hey we want to what are you working on. Oh when are you going to release your next feature. You know a lot teaser post we've got no traction with like hey new cool thing coming from shape next week. Check back in. Nobody puts that on their calendars like oh let me check back in next week to see what new feature they released that is just not the way people operate. You know you have to constantly be going out there constantly talking about the new things you're doing constantly building your audience and that's what I think a lot of people fall short on when they launch a new venture. You are not willing to do the tough things around sales are not willing to make the cold calls. I had a realization about seven months into founding the company that, oh no, I created a sales job for myself and that was what I was trying to avoid. Was a sales job. But that's where you're at in the early stage of any endeavor. You're with like you're going to have to be the person pushing that ball up the hill. Nobody is going to push that ball for you. You know that desperately at times early on wanted somebody to be there to help push the ball up but you gotta send that next hundred cold emails you've got to you know send that and write those next 10 blog posts you've got to continue to put it out there and that's been my biggest learning from this journey I've been on the last five years that learning has even been pushed into hyper drive with you being here the last year for us to be able to work on this and talk together. But we've tried to ingrain this idea of shaping the conversation into the name of the podcast and what we want people to do is go out there and create the change and make things happen. And when you go to do that even if you do spend nights and weekends building something. Understand that if you do launch it the world's not going to come to you. You've got to tell them about it. You've got to continue to find ways to get the word out there and you're going to have to be creative about it. There's no blueprint there's no way to do it. There's more noise than ever in this world. So start building your audience in your voice today even if you're at a job at a growing company that's moving fine and you know you're feeling good. That might not always be the case you might want to start something you're on your own at that point. Be great to have these people that are there to listen at least in some way. That's what I wish I would have done. N: Absolutely. Cultivate your network regardless of your big corporation or you're just starting out. J: Absolutely and I think that'll help. At least you'll have some small little corner of the world that might come to you and help you out. You're still going to earn it. The first customer no doubt is going to be your hardest customer. The first whatever of anything you're working on is going to be the first one. But don't let that stop you. Don't get discouraged. Take pride in the fact you're doing something really really hard. Getting people to change their ways and adopt a new behavior is a really tough thing to do and don't underestimate that if you're looking to get started. All right so what you think, Wrap it up? N: Let's wrap it up. J: Well we're working on our outros still we haven't dialed anything in. Nicole and I are continuing to spitball some things there so until further ideas come that might replace this one over and out from shape HQ here in beautiful Bend Oregon and we'll talk to you next time check out the show notes for a way to get in touch and tell a few friends out there because it's hard N: do it. J: All right. Talk to you next time. (music) END


This episode was produced by Max Bettendorf.

A big thanks also to 🎼 Music Flow Teaching for the intro and outro music, if you are in Central Oregon you should look them up for in-home creative music lessons.🎼)

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